A good discussion
A good discussion
Apart from the trolling and clutter sometimes the internet can really be a good place to have some nice discussions. Although the respond section of a YouTube movie is not optimal to have discussions for several reasons I would like to share with you an example that recently took place in the respond section of the Movie Zeitgeist: Moving Forward.
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@MrCally1
Once the power to issue money is under a government organ, the people will have a say in monetary policies, and thus be in control of their fortunes. In this way, it would be easy to maintain transparency, knowing where the money is going and to whom it is going. Next, the people will be able to see if the money is being used for the betterment of all citizens or being used solely for the profit of a few. You can judge a tree by the fruits it bears. Quite simply put.
Sssibaaaal 14 hours ago
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@tjohn1986
Again, you offer no sound arguments against why it's not important as to who issues the money. It sounds like you have a tremendous trust in the banks who have been responsible for the current economic crisis in your country, specifically due to fractional reserve, and thus, a debt-based monetary system. There is something seriously wrong about using money as a means to make more money, you are not creating any value.
Sssibaaaal 14 hours ago
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@tjohn1986
But then again, a quick look at your YouTube channel helps me to understand why you support the current monetary system. You have no morality. You're a hired thug. When the government/corporations need you to go kill little brown people, they''ll call you to protect the economic interest of corporations overseas. Go get a soul, and stop killing people for the war profiteers. The military industrial complex is the most corrupt, crony capitalist system ever known in history.
Sssibaaaal 14 hours ago
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@tjohn1986
Also, there is no transparency or auditing mechanism within the Fed, and thus, the people have no idea how this money is being used. Recently, it was shown thru the Rolling Stone magazine that the fed gave hundreds of millions of dollars to two wives of Wall Street bankers. It boggles my mind to see you support the current monetary system, after all the TARP, bailouts, etc, it is obvious that banks can't be trusted with running the economy or being in charge of the monetary policies.
Sssibaaaal 14 hours ago
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@Sssibaaaal
"Once the power to issue money is under a government organ, the people will have a say in monetary policies, and thus be in control of their fortunes."
I am sorry to say but this won't change a thing. It only puts tremendous power and control to the government. Transparency is not one of the strongest aspects of governments.
Please, don't believe in the illusion you have something to say with voting once every four years.
-0- MrCally1 11 hours ago
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@MrCally1
when Lincoln created the green back he paid for the civil war without debt or income taxes - government printing of the money it uses would be a positive step - but not the end - of course a real democracy would help too - not a representative one - as there is no good reason to have representative democracy - people could vote from home - and wouldn’t need to travel to a capital to debate - and i think there has to be that in the end
MrIzzyDizzy 10 hours ago
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@MrCally1
it’s not a total solution but a needed one in a transition - as privately printed money is the cause of government debt and taxes and corruption of people who would like to create the infra-structure for a new paradigm- elimination of private debt money would be helpful i think - it’s one of about 50 steps needed to get to a rbe - at the least it would be a good step - it still won’t solve required cyclical consumption or massive waste or technological unemployment etc. - it would help
MrIzzyDizzy 10 hours ago
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@MrIzzyDizzy -
Only as one of a lot of steps I can agree with it. - The money has to come into the system through the citizens and not through the banks or governments. As part of an egalitarian democratic system.
People can than really decide what way our society is going.
Voting every four years is just not enough. We need a non-representative democratic system. Any other will lead to fascism or dictatorship of an elite.
Please think about this, it is crucial.
-0- MrCally1 9 hours ago
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@MrCally1
I already agree with real democracy - and i think about the transition a lot - but it’s still premature as 11million is a long way from 7 billion we need to keep working to express and explain the ideas.
MrIzzyDizzy 8 hours ago
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@MrIzzyDizzy -
"we need to keep working to express and explain the ideas"
Yes, true, but nothing is keeping us from getting things really started. Try and start in your country a "Egalitarian Democratic Party". This will be a first step to a non-representative democracy.
We cannot bypass politics you know.
-0- MrCally1 8 hours ago
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I WANT DEMOCRAAAAAAACYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYyyy
StrawHatMKDL 10 hours ago
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@MrCally1
Well, there are a lot of things that need to happen before the government becomes accountable and transparent. First of all, the media needs to be independent rather than puppets of the rich elite, feeding at the feet of Mammon and selling the country for his daily bread. Journalists should not be afraid to write the truth to educate and inform the public. Once there is an independent media, then the people can be fully informed and vigilant about gov't and keep it in check.
Sssibaaaal 8 hours ago
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@Sssibaaaal
Well, here you see the problem. Of course I agree with you that the media should be independent, but....
But who has the power to implement this and to keep this up? - You have to do more than just telling us sympathetic ideas.
-0- MrCally1 8 hours ago
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@MrCally1
Who has the power? Power comes from obedience. Once people wake up to the fact that politicians and international bankers only exercise power over them because they accept their authority, then it's like a house of cards. The structure of the economy and politics are all made by human beings, and the people need to wake up and change the system that they have been accepting by choice. Thus, citizens need to be educated and informed to realize that each one of them has power.
Sssibaaaal 7 hours ago
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@MrCally1
Next, in order to create a government for and by the people, the public needs to be educated and interested in the things that really matter rather than being distracted by the bread and circuses. That is the most difficult task, which would involve changing the current public education system, born out of the industrial age, that seeks to merely create obedient factory workers, and instead create a critical thinking population that is able to question assumptions and challenge norms.
Sssibaaaal 8 hours ago
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@Sssibaaaal
"Next, in order to create a government for and by the people, the public needs to be educated and interested in the things that really matter rather.."
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Again this is merely a wish or sympathetic idea. It lacks substance because you do not mention who will implement this and who has the power to do so. -0- MrCally1 7 hours ago
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@MrCally1
Same here. I believe that at the end of the day truth, justice, and compassion for fellow human beings should be the guiding principles on our long and windy road to a better future. For when I look the world, I see no boundaries, only a round earth. We are all in this together. Let's respect each other's freedom as long as there's no harm done. And eventually we will end up with no government. Governments are unnecessary, for why does man need laws to be good to each other?
Sssibaaaal 7 hours ago
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@Sssibaaaal
There will always be laws, be it human or natural.
Please, try and be more realistic. The problem isn't where we want to go, but how to get there. The real question is the following:
How can we get from the current criminal, hooker system -called a representative democracy or monetary corporatocracy- to a demonetized, non-representative democracy?
Imho only an egalitarian democratic system can be regarded as the transient system.
-0- MrCally1 16 hours ago
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@MrCally1
Once people start exercising individual sovereignty, power and authority would come from reasoning and open debate amongst people to collectively decide what would be best in the best interest of the general population, specifically for the most vulnerable and weak people. That is a true democracy, dating back to Ancient Greece where each citizen had the possibility to voice their ideas and have input into the decision making process.
Sssibaaaal 7 hours ago
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@Sssibaaaal
People are not ready for individual sovereignty. They all bear the heritage of this current hooker system. You have to guide them to it and it will take some time to get there.
-0- MrCally1 7 hours ago
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@MrCally1
No one will show them the way, I don't believe in an enlightened despot. Each individual is sovereign. Media should offer all information and all possibilities, but once each individual has access to all information, he/she will be able to make an informed choice. Thus, it will be up to each individual to decide what is best for himself and the general population. The officers have no power over its soldiers if the soldiers don't obey them and laugh at their orders.
Sssibaaaal 7 hours ago
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@Sssibaaaal
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We agree on where we want to go,
but we disagree on the way to get there.
Was nice talking to you.
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-0- MrCally1 7 hours ago
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@MrCally1
Being realistic has never brought innovation or change.. only those who can imagine a new way can create solutions. If the Wright brothers thought realistically and gave up the belief in flight, we wouldn't have planes would we?
Imagination is more important than knowledge.
The world we have made, as a result of the level of thinking we have done thus far, creates problems we cannot solve at the same level of thinking at which we created them.
- Albert Einstein
Sssibaaaal 10 hours ago
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@Sssibaaaal
"If the Wright brothers thought realistically..."
Sorry, you are misinformed, they WERE thinking realistically.
-0-MrCally1 7 hours ago
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-0-MrCally1 7 hours ago
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@MrCally1
The first thing that needs to happen is "a radical revolution of values. We must rapidly begin the shift from a "thing-oriented" society to a "person-oriented" society.
But you may say that is impossible. When your son or daughter wakes up in a fascist dictatorship and asks you what were you doing when this happened? will you reply: I was being realistic.
“Those that say it can’t be done should get out of the way of those doing it”
Sssibaaaal 7 hours ago
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@Sssibaaaal -
Yes, I will answer that I was being realistic.
Because that is the only way out of this mess
full of illusions and delusions.
Start working on what I have said.
Start being realistic as the Wright brothers were.
-0- MrCally1 7 hours ago
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@MrCally1
In retrospect they were being realistic, but at that time to think that we could fly in metal planes was unrealistic by most of the people. Sssibaaaal 7 hours ago
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@MrCally1
I respect your views and your belief in the only transient? system of egalitarian democracy as the answer. But you have not told me your realistic ways of getting there. I have told you about the independent media, shift from materialism to humanism, individual sovereignty, etc. But what have you offered? you have only questioned my theories. I would like to hear your road map that you think is the only way.. because to find new, better ideas, we need to discuss and enlighten each other
Sssibaaaal 6 hours ago
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@MrCally1
I get this feeling from you that you are not interested in enlightenment and finding new solutions through discussion like any realistic person, since you think illusions and delusions don't plague your clear and realistic ideas. Freud would have a big doubt about how realistic your ideas may be. But, it seems that you are merely arguing for arguments sake rather than offering constructive criticism. Enjoy your high ivory tower that you live in. Mr Cally
Sssibaaaal 6 hours ago
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@Sssibaaaal
"But, it seems that you are merely arguing for arguments sake rather than offering constructive criticism."
How wrong can you be, I am trying to show you a realistic way out of this mess, dammit!
-0-MrCally1 6 hours ago
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I agree with PJ when he says in his "message to the occupy movement":
"We got to get this egalitarianism going as soon as possible."
But remember that egalitarianism is not a final solution.
-0- MrCally1 6 hours ago
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@MrCally1
hey there, don't get angry now.. I am still waiting to hear your thoughts on how to get to this transient system of egalitarian democracy. Sssibaaaal 6 hours ago
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@Sssibaaaal
Ok, the thing is, is that I have come to realise you can't bypass politics with changes like this (like TZM proposes). Changes need to happen through politics.
The way is:
Current Hooker system => egalitarian democracy => non representative democracy.
All the things you have said, like freeing the media, optimization of education, demonetization, etc. will happen in this temporary "egalitarian phase".
This will take time, but it will get people ready for a non-representative direct democracy.
-0- MrCally1 6 hours ago
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@Sssibaaaal -
So, what needs to happen first is the creation of Egalitarian Democratic Parties in as much countries as possible.
As you can see what is happening in the world today with for instance the occupy movement, these parties will gain momentum very fast.
This is a realistic way to go.
-0-MrCally1 6 hours ago
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@MrCally1
So, your vision is to have a world with direct democracy, kinda like in Switzerland where they had a referendum open to all people's participation.. well, ok. I think the idea is good, each person having some form of participation in the running of one's government. But with such large populations as in America, how would that happen? would the governments provide a computer connected to the internet so that each person can have access to an online forum or agora to pass legislation?
Sssibaaaal 6 hours ago
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@Sssibaaaal –
Well yes, a direct democracy or non-representative democracy is only possible now with our modern telecommunication technology. This is the uniqueness of our time and we have to count our blessings.
In this direct democracy there is no government, but the people are ruling themselves through a true democratic process. But remember that if you want to rule yourself it can be a great burden and responsibility. People need to get ready for this.
-0- MrCally1 5 hours ago
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@MrCally1
And what would these Egalitarian Democratic Parties consist of? since it's a direct democracy there would be no career politicians, so each person would need a lot of extra time besides working to be involved in these parties to make decisions regarding foreign policy, economic policies, monetary policies.. would each party be representing the population of certain regions?
Sssibaaaal 5 hours ago
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@Sssibaaaal
You don't understand. An egalitarian democracy is not a direct democracy. It can be used as a precursor to a direct democracy though.
-0- MrCally1 5 hours ago
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@69oneear
well, I am surely excited about the people standing up for themselves, but I am equally alarmed at how easily people can be co-opted into accepting new laws that only consolidate power into the hands of the few. It's called problem-reaction-solution. The elites are quite happy to see people react because they can offer them solutions that help them stay in power and continue this political and economic scam. We all need to research the nature of our enslavement b4 being duped again.
Sssibaaaal 5 hours ago
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@MrCally1
Then, enlighten me kind sir.. What is egalitarian democracy? by the word egalitarian, it sure sounds like each person is given equal rights to participate in the decision making process. How is it different from direct democracy, in which people also directly participate in the decision making process?
Sssibaaaal 5 hours ago
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@Sssibaaaal
An egalitarian democracy is still a representative democracy.
The people are represented by politicians in that system.
A direct democracy is per definition a non-representative democracy.
People have direct influence in the political decision making process.
And are not represented by politicians anymore.
-0- MrCally1 5 hours ago
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@Sssibaaaal
The change has already started, my friend, the other day protesters in Egypt organized a solidarity day for Oakland California. The change or Renaissance if you will, is an Intellectual Revolution of our Evolution. This time it is global
We the people are beginning to become aware of the fallacies of our current systems, the realization that we are one people, living on one planet, with the common interest of being responsible individuals, with respect for one another and the planet. The solidarity of all common man on the planet , will prevail.
69oneear 5 hours ago, 69oneear 5 hours ago
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@MrCally1
thank you so much for enlightening me to direct democracy.. didn't know it was that easy of a road map to realize. I'm going to get to work right this moment. Direct Democracy is such a realistic solution!
Sssibaaaal 5 hours ago
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@Sssibaaaal
" The elites are quite happy to see people react because they can offer them solutions that help them stay in power and continue this political and economic scam. We all need to research the nature of our enslavement b4 being duped again. "
Correct. That is why we must not conflate "small p" politics - aka the "social" movement Joseph et al speak of - with the fraudulent "Big P" politics of parties and representative democracy.
Let's re-invent the game to The Peoples' advantage.
noahelp1 5 hours ago
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@Sssibaaaal
Well, now I have shown you the way, start and get going.
Good luck...
-0-MrCally1 5 hours ago
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@MrCally1
Governments will provide a computer and internet service to all the people in Compton, the crips and bloods will now get on their computers to pass legislation to decriminalize crack, heroin, etc..
Sssibaaaal 5 hours ago
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@MrCally1
despite the difficulty and my sarcasm, I totally agree with you that direct democracy is an idea that we should all strive for. Not only because of I believe in individual sovereignty, but I believe that empowering individuals is the only way to stop ever more corruption. And surely, the internet has been such a tool to empower the masses and give them a voice. It also provided a way to get information out that corporate controlled media would have never allowed.. good discussion
Sssibaaaal 4 hours ago
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In the former Zeitgeist movement forum a lot of discussions have taken place about the so called “transition” to an RBE. In the discussion shown here some important aspects of this transition have been stated.
For instance the question whether politics can be “by passed” in the transition to an RBE is an interesting question. The ZM is not fond of politicians and a lot can be said in favour of this. But still, even in case the ZM is able to optimally communicate its ideas amongst the 7 billion people living on this planet a political fulcrum is needed to make the changes a reality.
Another important aspect is the meaning of egalitarianism in the transition to an RBE. Although the Zeitgeist movement is not a political movement, but more something like a ‘global think tank’ or ‘education movement’ it communicates some very specific and strong political statements.
PJ in his answer to the occupy movement steps a bit out of this role as he says “we got to get this egalitarianism going asap”. Which is clearly a very strong political statement.
I disagree with PJ when he is stating that a parallel government has to be created. The forming of a parallel government is possible. But it wouldn’t have any formal saying in what is going on, therefor it will be ignored by the real politicians. This idea totally ignores the nature of the political power play that is taking place on this planet. Furthermore it ignores the nature of the occupy movement. These people don’t want to form a government, they don’t want to be organized. They just want to show their concern and protest against all that is happening in our little corrupted world.
The most important aspect of the discussion shown here is that an RBE can be a reality and a path to achieving an RBE is possible and has been clearly given throughout this discussion. The zeitgeist movement will never be a political movement, but it certainly can play a very important informal part in the transition, as can the occupy movement.
For changes to take place we are in dire need of a breed of new politicians. People who understand political power play and can participate in it, but are humble enough to refrain from power or being established as it is needed. This is the real challenge. People in the government say that they serve this society, then perhaps it is better to invent a new word for the word government: “Servicement”.
Autor
